How do you define Independents?

[TimeTexas]

In the most broad terms, independent brands can range from tiny microbrands to the largest and most successful brands in the world, Rolex. And anything in between. 

But when talking about Independents in the spirit of this forum, I think it's well understood that we aren't talking about large commercial brands. 

But where do we draw the line? What are the parameters? When is an independent brand  small enough to be considered an "Independent"? 

And when does a microbrand become an "Independent"? Is there a minimum level of watchmaking or craftsmanship required to move from microbrand status to "Independent"? 

The lines are definitely becoming more difficult to discern. 

How do you define Independents? 

 

 

[Nakkdry]

I could say the brand should involve a lot of manufacture work and not being owned by a group. But that's just ignoring new brands and small budget watches.

So, I'll just say, to me, an independent brand is simply defined by this : you contact the brand and the creator or a person close to him in his small staff respond 

 

[TimeTexas]

On 8/6/2022 at 3:45 AM, Nakkdry said:

I could say the brand should involve a lot of manufacture work and not being owned by a group. But that's just ignoring new brands and small budget watches.

So, I'll just say, to me, an independent brand is simply defined by this : you contact the brand and the creator or a person close to him in his small staff respond 

 

Agreed for the most part. I do think there is a difference between a watchmaker who is intimately involved in creating some aspect of the physical watch versus what I would consider a microbrand whereby the brands provides a design and simply outsources all elements of the actual production. 

I feel like there should be some level of craftsmanship performed by the brand/watchmaker beyond the design to create a distinction between the two.

[TimeTexas]

I've been doing some thinking on this and I really think its a blurred line and there are no set rules. And I think where it ultimately matters is potential price point for the timepieces. In no way do I intend to disparage microbrands...I love the creativity and value they bring to the market as alternatives in the more affordable space, especially compared to large luxury brands.

However, microbrands, even larger and well known micros, are still viewed within the watch world as "kickstarter" projects. Even if that isn't necessarily the case. Certainly Kickstarter has been fuel on the fire as watches have seen an increase in popularity over the last several  years. But that's far from actual reality as many microbrands either never used Kickstarter or have stopped using it as their brand has grown in popularity. But "microbrands" probably have a limiting upper limit on the amount they can charge for a timepiece. And I think that discussion warrants another thread.

"Independent brands" and "watchmakers" are seen as much more as having elements of craftsmanship that go beyond just design and outsourcing production. As a result, the value of that craftsmanship can vary greatly and lead to pieces easily going into the 10's and 100's of thousands of dollars. Microbrands, generally, do not provide any specific craftsmanship that is provided by an in-house "watchmaker" per se.

And I think you see that some of the upper tier "microbrands" are now making significant efforts to move into the higher tier "independent" category. Brands like Formex offer unique and patented design elements that are a large step above a typical microbrand. Orion watches recently released a new model the "Tesseract" which has a much more intricate hand-finished dial and case finishing than the standard finishes you would find on a microbrand. But Orion straddles the line and also offers timepieces in the $700-$800 range which can be seen as more of the microbrand territory.

I think a company like anOrdain comfortably fits in the independent category as they provide a very specialized dial making process that is performed in-house. That in-house craftsmanship is well beyond a typical microbrand even at relatively affordable price points.

Horage is another great example of a company that started completely with outsourced components and over the years has added signficant in-house capabilities and is now clearly an exciting independent brand.

So while there are no hard and fast rules, I do think that one of the biggest differentiators is the element of in-house craftsmanship. Whether that is as simple as finishing, all the way up to creation of in-house movements. And while there are varying degrees, there is certainly a growing number of smaller microbrands that appear to be taking steps to move up to independent status. And that's exciting news for watch lovers (especially those on a budget).

What other companies are straddling the micro/indie line?

 

[Nakkdry]

I completely agree with your analysis.

The independence from a large group and the handwork on some elements should allow on this forum watches that don't cost an arm  and new small brands. The question that remains is : the handwork has to be done from inside the brand or can it be done by an outsourced artisan ?

 

On 8/16/2022 at 7:41 PM, TimeTexas said:

What other companies are straddling the micro/indie line?

Depending on the question I ask above, I think some watches from Louis Erard could fit, the one designed by Alain Silberstein, their Guilloché main or Email grand feu.

[TimeTexas]

On 8/18/2022 at 4:53 AM, Nakkdry said:

I completely agree with your analysis.

The independence from a large group and the handwork on some elements should allow on this forum watches that don't cost an arm  and new small brands. The question that remains is : the handwork has to be done from inside the brand or can it be done by an outsourced artisan ?

 

Depending on the question I ask above, I think some watches from Louis Erard could fit, the one designed by Alain Silberstein, their Guilloché main or Email grand feu.

It has become an increasingly blurred line. And I'm finding that out as I reach out and connect with more and more brands about joining the club. And honestly its not always cut and dry. I listened to the Arcanaut Records podcast earlier today and sounds like they might be addressing that issue in the next podcast. And I think that will be a very interesting discussion based on some of the conversation I've had with Anders (Arcanaut). They used to identify more as a microbrand, but increased craftsmanship and the overall business operations have led them to be more of an independent brand, imo. And they now identify as an independent brand. So they will have a unique perspective on the differences.

I definitely welcome feedback especially from any of the watchmakers/brands and their feelings. This is a forum for them and there feedback would be invaluable. I am building a similar community for microbrands as well, but drawing that distinction may be tough in some instances.

[TimeTexas]

So speaking a little with Anders Brandt (Arcanaut Founder), he has three (3) criteria that I think would likely separate 95% of microbrands and independents.

1) Are the watches supplied by an OEM Manufacturer in the East?

2) Is the price greater/less than $1,500 USD?

3) Do you make homages or take heavy design cues from other brands?

I think those are a great starting point in drawing a line between microbrands and independents. Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but asking those three questions first is  a good place to start.

[TimeTexas]

Discussion of Microbrands vs. Independents on the latest The Arcanaut Records Podcast.

Episode 6 Podcast

 

Awesome stuff in this episode. Give it a listen.

[Nakkdry]

I'll listen to it this evening!

[TimeTexas]

I really enjoy this podcast. Some really nice insight but also completely off the wall too. No set format, they just sit and talk about whatever. James has a hilarious banter and the two play will of each other. Definitely informal, which I like. 

[dbenton414]

For me, an independent brand is a brand that is in it for the sake  of progressing the art of horology rather than a company whose motive is pure profit. Granted, you must make money, but independent brands seem to care more for their art than the money the receive. 
I also feel that I ndependent brands tend to be more passionate with regard to all aspects of horology. 

They are more one-on-one with their patrons. The individual buying the piece doesn’t just contact a representative of the brand, but they have the ability, in most cases, to speak directly to the watchmaker. I feel that you end up with a watch that you have a deeper connection to. One that goes beyond a brand.

Is there a single definition? IMO, no. 
I do feel however, that they seem to fit a mold of accessibility and they have an incredible passion for the art and history of watchmaking. They also tend to push boundaries and further the science when compared to “big” brands. 
 

*thoughts by me, spelling by Siri.

[TimeTexas]

10 hours ago, dbenton414 said:

For me, an independent brand is a brand that is in it for the sake  of progressing the art of horology rather than a company whose motive is pure profit. Granted, you must make money, but independent brands seem to care more for their art than the money the receive. 
I also feel that I ndependent brands tend to be more passionate with regard to all aspects of horology. 

They are more one-on-one with their patrons. The individual buying the piece doesn’t just contact a representative of the brand, but they have the ability, in most cases, to speak directly to the watchmaker. I feel that you end up with a watch that you have a deeper connection to. One that goes beyond a brand.

Is there a single definition? IMO, no. 
I do feel however, that they seem to fit a mold of accessibility and they have an incredible passion for the art and history of watchmaking. They also tend to push boundaries and further the science when compared to “big” brands. 
 

*thoughts by me, spelling by Siri.

I think that's a good point. I'd say that I would draw a distinction between microbrands that create truly unique watches that are not derivative of more popular brands' watches and/or homage pieces. I see those as purely profit driven enterprise. But there are many microbrands owners who are true watch lovers and want to share their passion and vision and take a chance on sharing that with others in the hope others like it. These are the microbrands I buy and support. 

But I wholeheartedly agree that on the whole, independent watchmakers are definitely more interested in furthering the art and mechanics of watchmaking instead of simply providing a design to be made and assembled elsewhere. 

The personal interaction, for me, had become one of the overwhelming factors in moving to Independent brands and microbrands almost exclusively this year. Even sold my Omega to help fund my Fears. The passion that Nicholas has is unparalleled and that spirit just doesn't come through in of the shelf brands. 

I will say that I've met some incredible ADs and representatives for the independents, including Martin Pulli, and Jeremy Oster, and Rob Caplan (and Jay) at Topper. As well at Mike Margolis who was kind enough to join this site after I met him recently. They all share that passion for the brands they represent. 

Happy to have you in the community! 

Great points.

Cheers and Merry Christmas! 

[dbenton414]

4 hours ago, TimeTexas said:

I think that's a good point. I'd say that I would draw a distinction between microbrands that create truly unique watches that are not derivative of more popular brands' watches and/or homage pieces. I see those as purely profit driven enterprise. But there are many microbrands owners who are true watch lovers and want to share their passion and vision and take a chance on sharing that with others in the hope others like it. These are the microbrands I buy and support. 

But I wholeheartedly agree that on the whole, independent watchmakers are definitely more interested in furthering the art and mechanics of watchmaking instead of simply providing a design to be made and assembled elsewhere. 

The personal interaction, for me, had become one of the overwhelming factors in moving to Independent brands and microbrands almost exclusively this year. Even sold my Omega to help fund my Fears. The passion that Nicholas has is unparalleled and that spirit just doesn't come through in of the shelf brands. 

I will say that I've met some incredible ADs and representatives for the independents, including Martin Pulli, and Jeremy Oster, and Rob Caplan (and Jay) at Topper. As well at Mike Margolis who was kind enough to join this site after I met him recently. They all share that passion for the brands they represent. 

Happy to have you in the community! 

Great points.

Cheers and Merry Christmas! 

Very well said and agree. There are some amazing ADs out there for sure. 
Thanks for a great platform and it’s a pleasure taking part. 

Merry Christmas to you and yours.

[TimeTexas]

Thanks, I appreciate that very much. Very happy to have you here. Feel free to invite anyone you know who might be interested. I launched the site, but won't formally announce it for a while. Kind of a soft opening to make sure the site is working and tweak a few things here and there. The more the merrier.

And definitely feel free to offer suggestions anytime.

Merry Christmas!